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Subject: Re: Stunned After Last Few Measures of an Opera
From: donald kane <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:donald kane <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Tue, 4 Dec 2018 13:22:46 -0500
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I regret not having placed my "coup de theatre" in a separate
paragraph;  there was no connection intended with the two
works of Wagner under discussion.    The ending of MADAMA
BUTTERFLY, not among your nominations, the more I think
about it, continues to be uniquely qualified in its power to stun,
in an almost literate definition of the word.  Yes we have fallen
into a semantic trap, I suppose, but I love words and try to use
them as meaningfully as I can.

BTW, I am not in the least surprised by how radically different
the responses of people can be to the same music.

dtmk


On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 11:01 AM G. Paul Padillo <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> Donald, when reading your posts I often have the sense that you live
> according to a set of
> fixed ideas and notions that forces you to question (though never
> seemingly to a
> satisfactory conclusion for yourself ) anyone who does not share your view
> . . .  that they do
> not, perhaps, understand the world, or art, or perhaps, anything else
> within it.
>
> Try as I have over my life, I’ve never figured out how someone can see and
> experience
> things so radically different than I do in my little world, but it’s never
> really mattered and
> even sharing the joy differently has brought more satisfaction than
> frustration.  Ultimately,
> it doesn’t really matter, does it?
>
> As the one you cited who listed “both DIE MEISTERSINGER and PARSIFAL” I
> must state you
> appear to have answered your own question:  “but what else do they have in
> common
> except an inevitability so carefully crafted that no other outcome is even
> imaginable . . . are
> we really not talking about what was once called “le coup de theatre?”
> I’m not certain what
> you mean in that while I prefer to experience opera live and in person,
> the effect made on
> me is remarkably similar even when just listening to a recording or a
> broadcast.  Wagner
> did not intend his works to be merely “heard” so I must ask, are the
> endings of Parsifal and
> Meistersinger also “coup de theatre” even if unintended, as we experience
> them only
> aurally?  Does it matter?  Is my reaction irrelevant?  It may be to
> others, but not to me,
> since I can only experience it through my own filters and sensibilities,
> much like (or exactly
> like) you do.
>
> The original question posed asked us to share what operas (specifically
> their endings) had
> the effect of stunning us.  I, and others, have answered, if not to your
> satisfaction, honestly,
> which was, I believe the point.  That you don’t share it is of no
> relevance – though some
> interest (at least to me).
>
> There is an inherent smugness in the opening pair of sentences with which
> you began your
> post, followed by the zinger suggesting some sort of abandonment of the
> senses or of our
> comprehension of language.  Contained therein invariably seems to be the
> endless
> argument of “then versus now," with an increasing contempt for “now.”
> There may may be
> a perfectly logical argument in there somewhere, but ultimately
> complaining about how someone else enjoys their art, and questioning or
> minimizing the experience of others has
> always been bad form.  Then, and now.
>
> p.
>
> * * * * * * * *
>
> On Tue, 4 Dec 2018 08:44:50 -0500, donald kane <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> "Have you ever considered what it means to be stunned?   What would the
> life expectancy
> be of an opera goer who experienced such a thing as often as your list
> suggests?  Or have
> we, yet again, abandoned the sense of the topic?  "Stunning" as an
> adjective has come to
> have about as much meaning as "iconic".  One list had both DIE
> MEISTERSINGER and
> PARSIFAL: the ending of the first is glorious beyond belief, and of the
> second, awesome
> beyond belief, but what else do they have in common except an
> inevitability so carefully
> crafted that no other outcome is even imaginable if we are still talking
> about music.  In
> some cases, are we really  not talking about what was once called,  le
> coup de theatre?"
>
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