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Subject: Re: Dialogues of the Carmelites
From: donald kane <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:donald kane <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Fri, 23 Feb 2018 08:50:26 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
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text/plain (205 lines)


And I would trade all the works of Janacek, Hindemith, and Busoni, for any
one of Brahms'  symphonies.  Such declarations are essentially fruitless..
I happen to mean it, but would rather have a tooth extracted, than attempt
to persuade anyone that my preference is the correct one; in other words:
who
cares?

dtmk




On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 1:59 AM, Genevieve Castle Room <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Paul wrote:
>
>
> >As to the irrational necessity felt to pit Poulenc’s opera with those less
> frequently performed operas by Hindemith, Janacek and Busoni is unnecessary
> and, ultimately, useless. The three composers had entirely different – and
> unique – styles that had/have nothing to do with each other aside from each
> man being at the top of his game and producing works of genius. A personal
> preference for another work does not diminish the artistic accomplishment
> of Monsieur Poulenc with his Dialogues.
>
>
> No it doesn't diminish it -- but do you really think 'Dialogues of The
> Carmelites' is worthy to stand with the finest works of Hindemith, Busoni
> and Janáček?
>
> To start - is there anything in Poulenc's oeuvre to compare with the 3rd
> act of 'From the House of the Dead'? Let's focus on just one portion. Did
> Poulenc ever do anything remotely like what Janáček did with Shapkin's
> tale?
>
> This version with Heinz Zednik is my favorite.
>
>
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1bhRr5kgv10
>
>
> Yes, I absolutely would trade every note Poulenc wrote for ANY random scene
> in 'The House of the Dead'.
>
>
>
>
> ————
>
> On Wednesday, February 21, 2018, G. Paul Padillo <[log in to unmask]
> >
> wrote:
>
> > "The music in Carmelites makes one almost suspect a confectionary
> > misspelling -- sickly sweet and pleasurable in small quantities but
> > actually of little nutritious value. There are a few scenes that stick
> out
> > but the lack of real musical invention makes it a dull overall listening
> > experience."  (Snip)
> > ******
> >
> > This (along with nearly everything else in the post, attached to the
> > bottom,
> > where it belongs) has to be among the most hilarious, yet still bilious
> > statements of bullshit I’ve ever run across regarding what is widely, and
> > correctly accepted as one of the masterpieces of the mid 20th century,
> > bringing to mind the nonsense by some British critic citing “Nozze di
> > Figaro” as an inflated, overrated, bore “people only pretend to like
> > because
> > they’re supposed to,” proving no lack of idiocy in the world of criticism
> > and
> > journalism.
> >
> > 15-20 years ago I had “dialogues” with a fellow lister who hated this
> > opera,
> > stating how he “was enraged by “the passivity of the Sisters of Carmel”
> > and their like “lambs-to-the-slaughter” idea of martyrdom, questioning
> why
> > a composer could possibly be drawn to this text.  Poulenc should “have
> > been ashamed to bring this before the public .  .  . At a time when the
> > whole world was still reeling . . . how could Poulenc choose to set this
> > little
> > antique tragedy about the Carmelite nuns of 1789."
> >
> > The beauty – and horror – of Poulenc’s opera, I believe, is how it
> > addresses
> > universally many issues and, despite the specificity of it its setting,
> is
> > ultimately a story that could take, and has taken place at any given time
> > in
> > any part of the world.  In “Dialogues” Poulenc has given us one of the
> few
> > repertory pieces which, alongside Wagner’s “Parsifal” has caused many to
> > profoundly examine one’s personal faith, whatever that faith may be.
> >
> >
> > As to the irrational necessity felt to pit Poulenc’s opera with those
> less
> > frequently performed (“more esoteric,” if you will) operas by Janacek and
> > Busoni is unnecessary and, ultimately, useless.  The three composers had
> > entirely different – and unique – styles that had/have nothing to do with
> > each other aside from each man being at the top of his game and
> > producing works of genius.  A personal preference for another work does
> > not diminish the artistic accomplishment of Monsieur Poulenc with his
> > Dialogues.
> >
> > From the initial buzz at its La Scala premiere to continued productions
> > round the world, ever since, Poulenc’s opera has lost nothing of the
> power
> > with which it came into this world.  I have seen this work a number of
> > times in a various productions and it continues to wring tears from these
> > eyes while also, as the greatest art can, connect the mind to the heart.
> >
> > p.
> >
> >
> > * * * * *
> >
> >
> > Anon blogger wrote:
> >
> > >Poulenc's Dialogues des Carmelites doesn't at all convince. The
> unlikeable
> > tacky religious kitsch (not even likeable in a camp "good because it's
> bad"
> > way) of the situation and music as well as the poverty of the actual
> > musical material makes for a long evening. Though the characters are
> > strongly drawn, they are hard to relate to - what are we to make of the
> > eliptical and abnormal reasoning of the minds of the devout, whose
> attitude
> > to life and death is so different from our own? Only Soeur Constance is
> > really likeable, but because she's so explicitly normal and seems to lack
> > the strangeness of the order's religious sentiments (until the ending
> that
> > is). The music in Carmelites makes one almost suspect a confectionary
> > misspelling -- sickly sweet and pleasurable in small quantities but
> > actually of little nutritious value. There are a few scenes that stick
> out
> > but the lack of real musical invention makes it a dull overall listening
> > experience.
> >
> > http://capricciomusic.blogspot.com/2011/03/dialogues-des-carmelites.html
> >
> > ------------
> >
> > Agree that the music is, if not over-sweet, not always very nutritious
> > (like Poulenc generally).
> >
> > (My understanding is that Poulenc was digging for the real France beneath
> > the official lies, and finding Catholicism, aristocracy, the small
> > community and self-sacrifice where others see only the regimented terror
> of
> > the modern state)
> >
> > Of course it is not at the artistic level of 'Mathis der Maler', 'Doktor
> > Faust' or 'From The House of The Dead' (Z mrtvého domu)..... but look wh
> > what
> > has come out of France since then!
> >
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