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Subject: Re: Favorite Ariadne recording - BSO in concert.
From: Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Thu, 8 Feb 2018 15:57:35 +0000
Content-Type:text/plain
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That's certainly a very good reason for my not remembering
the Composer ;-)

Bob

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 10:39 ANGELO MAMMANO <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> The BSO Ariadne was wonderful and it is great that we have
> the DVD of that with good sound and picture and in color!
> Since it was the original 1912 version there is no Composer
> since there is no prologue.  Robert Nagy is the Bacchus and
> he does a creditable job. Watson was superb.
>
> Angelo from Boston
>
>
> > On February 8, 2018 at 10:17 AM Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > The Boston Symphony also brought it to Carnehie Hall, where a
> > couple thousand people were knocked out by both Sills and Watson.
> > (I don't remember who sang the Composer and Bacchus, I suspect
> > because they were nowhere near the same level.)
> >
> > Sills was spectacular in every way, and like Peggy I was flabbergasted
> > that anything could be, but was, more difficult than the version we
> > knew. Wow!
> >
> > Claire Watson was marvelous in the title role, a level of excellence
> > that was to become the expected standard during the years I visited
> > Munich and Vienna. I also saw her as the Marschallin, Elsa and
> > Agathe, breathtaking, all. Her career should have been much better,
> > but it has been said that, like some others, it was her choice. She loved
> > the cities where she was known, and was more than happy to spend
> > her time there, especially in Munich, where she was truly loved.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 09:45 Peggy Houdek <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> >
> > > I like that one too. And that theis the original, more difficult
> version,
> > > that Strausrevised. She does a great job and I think I remember an
> > > interview where she told how difficult it was and I think she decided
> then
> > > not to do it again. And I thought the revised version hard. yikes!
> > >
> > > Peggy
> > >
> > > (,,,)^..^(,,)
> > >
> > > > On Feb 8, 2018, at 1:11 AM, rjcardinalli <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > For me, nothing will replace della Casa, and later Norman, in
> commercial
> > > recordings.   Among videos, I am also partial to the 1969 Boston
> concert
> > > performance under Leinsdorf with a very moving Claire Watson as
> Ariadne and
> > > a spectacular Beverly Sills as Zerbinetta.  We have too little of
> Watson
> > > available on disc or video and she was an exceptional artist.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
> > > > -------- Original message --------From: Vesna Danilovic <
> > > [log in to unmask]> Date: 08/02/2018  03:53  (GMT+02:00) To:
> > > [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Favorite Ariadne recording?
> > > > Sorry, pressed send too quickly: Michael Kater is the author's name.
> > > >
> > > >> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 8:48 PM, Vesna Danilovic <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> Discomfort comes from the lingering and haunting thought that at
> that
> > > very
> > > >> same time when these performances were taking place, millions of
> > > innocent
> > > >> souls were being exterminated in gas chambers with industrial
> > > efficiency.
> > > >> It's not a statement about the musicians, but about these horrific
> > > >> circumstances that were also a part of the reality. Of course, you
> are
> > > >> correct about the musicians who stayed and worked there... they
> range
> > > from
> > > >> those who actively collaborated with the regime to others who
> simply had
> > > >> nowhere else to go and had to continue to work in their homeland. I
> > > highly
> > > >> recommend Marek's THE TWISTED MUSE about the interesting and, from
> what
> > > I
> > > >> could see, thoroughly documented history of many prominent
> composers and
> > > >> performers of the time, and their very different life journeys
> through
> > > this
> > > >> most troubling period in their countries (mostly Germany and
> Austria).
> > > >>
> > > >> Vesna
> > > >>
> > > >> P.S. I see that a little 'autocorrect ' gremlin crept into my post
> as
> > > >> well, changing Seefried into Siegfried. Well, at least it has some
> > > operatic
> > > >> knowledge!
> > > >>
> > > >>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 8:17 PM, donald kane <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> What is it about a performance that took place in wartime
> > > >>> Germany that makes anyone "uncomfortable"; are all the
> > > >>> artists involved assumed to have been monsters because
> > > >>> they didn't refuse to participate?   Wouldn't it be odd if they
> > > >>> had NOT performed Strauss's music then, not to mention
> > > >>> Beethoven and Wagner?
> > > >>>
> > > >>> The Composer is my favorite soprano in  ARIADNE, and I wish
> > > >>> Teresa  Stratas, who was still portraying her as splendidly in 1994
> > > >>> at the Met, as she had done in 1967 in Munich, had been cast
> > > >>> in one of the "official" recordings
> > > >>>
> > > >>> dtmk.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 7:27 PM, Vesna Danilovic <
> [log in to unmask]>
> > > >>> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Rich and list,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> That 1944 live recording is a vintage ARIADNE that I wouldn't
> want to
> > > be
> > > >>>> without (while also sharing with Rich some degree of discomfort
> given
> > > the
> > > >>>> wartime circumstances). If you are open for more live recordings
> then
> > > the
> > > >>>> 1954 Salzburg with Della Casa, Siegfried, Gueden, Schock, again
> under
> > > >>>> Bohm
> > > >>>> would be my second choice. (I'm thrilled to read Bob R.'s
> endorsement
> > > of
> > > >>>> Della Casa's sublime Ariadne.) Among several good studio choices,
> I go
> > > >>>> back
> > > >>>> to Kempe who, of all conductors, carried Bohm's mantle most
> fittingly
> > > for
> > > >>>> this opera, IMO. The cast is mostly good to excellent, led by
> > > Janowitz's
> > > >>>> wonderful Ariadne. Kempe's conducting and ensemble is anything but
> > > >>>> artificial and deliberate, which I'm afraid mars the recording
> with
> > > >>>> Schwarzkopf and Karajan. (Though this is my favorite Strauss
> opera,
> > > there
> > > >>>> are some studio recordings I haven't heard, including Leinsdorf).
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On video, the Salzburg production from the 60s has Bohm in the
> pit,
> > > the
> > > >>>> marvelous Jurinac as Composer, Reri Grist's superb Zerbinetta,
> ....
> > > >>>> enough
> > > >>>> golden singing and conducting to have this video despite a
> slightly
> > > >>>> inferior Ariadne by comparison. I also very much enjoy the Met's
> > > >>>> performance under Levine with a truly great cast (Jesse Norman,
> > > Troyanos,
> > > >>>> Battle - wow!). I saw a couple of modern productions, including
> > > >>>> Glyndebourne's disastrous directorial approach that totally
> > > sidetracked
> > > >>>> from the Strauss-Hofmmanstahl conception, but they are easily
> > > >>>> forgettable.
> > > >>>> I'm also curious if there are any other video recommendations.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> One recording I think is worth exploring is the one I actually
> haven't
> > > >>>> yet
> > > >>>> heard but is high up on my bucket list: the original version led
> by
> > > >>>> Nagano
> > > >>>> with Margaret Price's Ariadne, Sumi Jo's Zerbinetta, and
> Winbergh's
> > > >>>> Bacchus. Besides the historical attraction to hear the opera's
> early
> > > >>>> version, the cast also surely looks very promising.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Vesna
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 2:13 PM, Bradley Wilber <
> > > >>>> [log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>> I'd be glad for people to include successful videos in this
> > > discussion
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>>> well.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Brad
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > > >>>>> From: Discussion of opera and related issues [mailto:
> > > >>>>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Donald Levine
> > > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2018 2:03 PM
> > > >>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
> > > >>>>> Subject: Re: Favorite Ariadne recording?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I am with Max regarding the Victor 1961 Ariadne auf Naxos.  As
> Max
> > > has
> > > >>>>> said, the sound picture is gorgeous and for me, Leonie is a
> > > magnificent
> > > >>>>> Ariadne - but as any of you who know me would know, Leonie can
> do no
> > > >>>>> wrong.  I heard her in the house later and she remains my
> favorite.
> > > >>>> Peters
> > > >>>>> is wonderful - I never expected she had it in her but she did.
> > > Peerce
> > > >>>> is a
> > > >>>>> fine Bacchus, personally I prefer King, but I'll take Peerce.  My
> > > >>>>> preference for the Komponist has always been a soprano and
> Jurinac is
> > > >>>> in a
> > > >>>>> class of her own.  The rest of this performance is well cast and
> its
> > > >>>> one of
> > > >>>>> Leinsdorf's better efforts.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I also have a soft spot the 1944 Strauss birthday celebration
> from
> > > >>>> Vienna
> > > >>>>> with Bohm conducting the great Maria Reining, Alda Noni, Irmgard
> > > >>>> Seefried,
> > > >>>>> Max Lorenz and Paul Schoeffler.  From the Kempe set, there is the
> > > >>>> luxurious
> > > >>>>> gorgeous singing of  Gundula Janowitz, Teresa Zylis-Gara  and
> James
> > > >>>> King.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> It's an opera that has been well served on disc with many
> outstanding
> > > >>>>> casts.  Also notable is the Kent Nagano recording of the original
> > > opera
> > > >>>>> only with Margaret Price, Sumi Jo and Gosta Winbergh.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> Donald
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 11:21 AM, Maxwell Paley <[log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I loved things like “Es gibt ein Reich” from the get-go, but it
> took
> > > >>>>>> me some years to “get” “Ariadne auf Naxos” overall. Seeing a
> > > >>>>>> performance with a bass-player friend around 20 years ago, she
> > > turned
> > > >>>>>> to me at one point and said “This is really an opera with an
> inside
> > > >>>>> story for musicians.”
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I agree that this was a Böhm specialty. Aside from the
> performances
> > > >>>>>> you mention, I also really like the mid 50s Salzburg production
> with
> > > >>>>>> Della Casa, Seefried and Gueden.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> My favorite overall recording is the Karajan. Did he ever
> conduct
> > > >>>> this
> > > >>>>>> on stage? I don’t think he did, as with “Cosi fan Tutte” but the
> > > >>>>>> recordings are exquisite.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I also like the Leinsdorf that even today, pushing 60, has the
> best
> > > >>>>>> recorded sound. Rysanek at that point was, to me, the operatic
> > > >>>>>> equivalent of Kim Novak: a bit blowsy and unkempt but still
> gorgeous
> > > >>>> and
> > > >>>>> voluptuous.
> > > >>>>>> Maybe it was my ignorance, but I found Peters a delightful
> surprise
> > > >>>> as
> > > >>>>>> Zerbinetta, not only vocally but also in terms of Strauss
> musical
> > > >>>> style.
> > > >>>>>> She sounds like she might have made a very fine Sophie. Peerce
> is a
> > > >>>>>> really pleasant surprise as Bacchus. Jurinac is Jurinac.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Another one I really like is the EMI Kempe.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> I’ve seen several really fine Composers, but on records I find
> > > >>>>>> Seefried and Jurinac both bring extraordinary compelling
> qualities
> > > in
> > > >>>>>> terms of the persona presented through the voice.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> An example of how important the orchestral sound is to an opera
> like
> > > >>>>>> this is the Solti recording, in which the London Philharmonic
> that
> > > >>>>>> sounds so good on Solti’s Mozart recordings, sounds so wrong.
> There
> > > >>>>>> are other problems with this recording such as how unflattering
> the
> > > >>>>>> microphone was to Leontyne Price at that point (she sounded much
> > > >>>>>> better in the role live), but the framework constructed by the
> > > >>>>>> orchestra sounds so inferior to the Vienna and Dresden
> orchestras,
> > > or
> > > >>>>>> what Karajan was able to get from the Philharmonia.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> The Böhm studio recording, with some significant soloists, is
> > > >>>>>> disappointing. Hillebrecht sounds to me like all of Rysanek’s
> > > >>>>>> weaknesses without her mitigating qualities.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Max Paley
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> On Feb 7, 2018, at 08:09, Rich Lowenthal <
> > > >>>> [log in to unmask]>
> > > >>>>>> wrote:
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> One of the operas I can never tire of is Ariadne auf Naxos--I
> don't
> > > >>>>>> think I have ever heard a dull or routine performance of the
> work
> > > >>>>>> (although I may just be blessed in this respect). It has been
> > > >>>>>> well-served on disk with both studio and live performances. My
> go-to
> > > >>>>>> conductor for Strauss is Bohm, and I find his Ariadne
> performances a
> > > >>>>>> cut above most others. One of my favorite recordings is the live
> > > 1944
> > > >>>>>> Bohm from Vienna, part of Strauss's 80th birthday celebrations
> (a
> > > >>>>>> celebration only reluctantly sanctioned, given the Nazis'
> difficult
> > > >>>>>> relationship with Strauss), with a wonderful
> > > >>>>>> cast: Maria Reining as Ariadne, Max Lorenz as Bacchus, Alda
> Noni as
> > > >>>>>> Zerbinetta and Seefried as the Composer (I am ever torn between
> > > >>>>>> Seefried and Jurinac in that role.) The recent remasters are in
> > > >>>>>> surprisingly good sound given the age of the recording. (I do
> admit
> > > >>>> to
> > > >>>>>> having some trouble listening to it, knowing the circumstances
> of
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> performance.)
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> For more recent recordings my favorites are the Karajan with
> > > >>>>>>> Schwarzkopf
> > > >>>>>> and Schock and the live Bohm with Janowitz and a young
> > > Gruberova--but
> > > >>>>>> with the caveat that I have never enjoyed the timbre of James
> King's
> > > >>>>>> voice, and far prefer Gary Lakes on the Levine recording, even
> > > though
> > > >>>>>> Lakes makes a rather bland Bacchus. There is much to recommend
> in
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> Sinopoli set--his last opera recording--although as was
> sometimes
> > > the
> > > >>>>>> case with that conductor, the tempos are often too extreme.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> What other recordings do listers recommend?
> > > >>>>>>>
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