LISTSERV mailing list manager LISTSERV 15.5

Help for OPERA-L Archives


OPERA-L Archives

OPERA-L Archives


View:

Next Message | Previous Message
Next in Topic | Previous in Topic
Next by Same Author | Previous by Same Author
Chronologically | Most Recent First
Proportional Font | Monospaced Font

Options:

Join or Leave OPERA-L
Reply | Post New Message
Search Archives


Subject: Re: when any career ends in disgrace
From: Ken Wilson <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Ken Wilson <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Mon, 1 Jan 2018 14:14:45 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
Parts/Attachments

text/plain (229 lines)


"He hasn't been convicted" (never mind that he hasn't been brought to trial) 
and overlooking the allegations against him would deprive those of us he 
hasn’t victimized of all the good he can do - that's the same attitude taken 
by the supporters of Donald Trump and Moore. Do they deserve the benefit of 
the doubt as well? What degree of proof should be needed that no one's life 
was "destroyed" and why do we, the non-victimized, get to define 
"destroyed"?

The Met, having heard the allegations against him, found them credible 
enough to warn him originally and fire him now. Since when do we require 
actual legal convictions to form our own opinions and act accordingly? 
Levine hasn't been proven guilty, but he sure does look it.

Ken

-----Original Message----- 
From: donald kane
Sent: Monday, January 1, 2018 1:44 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: when any career ends in disgrace

You are not alone.  I have agreed with you privately, and want
to begin the new year with an open assertion of belief in two
principals:  "innocent until proven guilty",  and "let him (or
her) who is without sin, cast the first stone".   Moreover, had
James Levine been indicted and imprisoned several decades
ago for his alleged crime, in what way could that be shown to
have "served justice"?    It has not been proven, to my mind,
that the lives of any of his so called victims were destroyed, but
his would have been, and the gifts of his talent and dedication
would have been denied to thousands.

.

On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 12:55 PM, Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

>  We know that there were at least several instances in the
> early eighties, for which the Met paid some compensation.
> And a new charge was recently leveled about an incident
> thirty or more years ago.
>
> That's all we know! At least, that's all I know.
>
> Not one person out of nearly 1000 on this list has answered my
> question, though I've asked it three times. When did it end?
> I understand that many of you may not find it relevant, but I do
> and every time we receive a flurry of self righteous condemnation
> basd on nothing more than innuendo, I shall ask that question.
>
> The legal statute of limitations expires after seven years, but the
> moral statute is quite different. How different, I'm not certain, but
> if James Levine has behaved as reasonable people should for the
> last quarter century, and more, I find all of this a tempest in a
> teapot.
>
> Perhaps I'm all alone, and that's ok. It is my view, and I beg nobody's
> pardon.
>
> Happy New Year!
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Jan 1, 2018 at 12:38 Kiwi <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Used to be that guilty people were appropriately punished, but it seems
> to
> > me in the last decade or so a double standard has been set which allows
> > certain people to commit crimes and not have any sort of penalty lodged
> > against them.  I think we can all remember news stories of people who, 
> > by
> > objective standards, were guilty and yet for societal, political, or
> > financial reasons were never required to face punishment.  Oh, a few
> > egregious folks serve as exceptions and examples but arguably, if you
> are a
> > 'special' person (for any number of reasons), justice may not be served
> > when
> > you are caught.  Justice has a peculiar way, at present, of finding
> > loopholes for a heck of lot of illegal / immoral activities.  I do
> believe
> > that is one of the growing inequalities in our nation.
> >
> > As for Levine, I understand music is an emotional component in a 
> > person's
> > life and perhaps that emotional connection allows an individual to
> > establish
> > separate sets of standards for Levine's (and others) conduct.  I'm not
> one
> > of them but I do understand how personal pleasure can cause someone to
> > ignore the damage done to others by Levine.  After all, if I derive
> > pleasure
> > from something, and I am a good person, then how can it possible be
> wrong?
> >
> > I think, perhaps, we would all be surprised by a lot of what goes on
> within
> > the music (or entertainment) business that never makes it to press but 
> > is
> > sordid and untidy and immoral and crass.  And, to disagree with Les, I
> > don't
> > think management is held responsible, even when they are clearly 
> > involved
> > with, at minimum, cover-up.  The Met Board and Met Management is a
> perfect
> > example:  if the stories are correct and these folks have been operating
> > behinds the scenes to clean up after Levine and silence the victims for
> > decades, and Gelb knew about the latest dust-up for a year and sat on it
> > hoping it would shrivel up and blow away, should they be punished?
> > Instead,
> > they will close around each other and use their considerable political
> and
> > financial clout to remain 'clean.'  You getter believe the lawyers have
> > already figured how to play the get out of jail card for them.
> >
> > Sadly, I enter 2018 completed jaded and disillusioned.
> >
> > Kiwi
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Les Mitnick
> > Sent: Monday, January 01, 2018 11:30 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: when any career ends in disgrace
> >
> > i cannot understand the notion that it's only a sexual indiscretion that
> > can
> > result in a
> > dismissal.  That's sheer lunacy.  I can assure you that if someone like
> the
> > General Manager,
> > the President of the Board, or even a famous singer were found to have
> made
> > big money off
> > a Ponzi scheme, they'd be dismissed as well.  If anyone who held such a
> > position was
> > discovered to be "money laundering", they'd also be fired.  I mean, 
> > let's
> > be
> > honest
> > everybody, Bernie Madoff is not exactly living a life of honor and 
> > glory.
> > He's a son of a
> > bitch without a conscience and deserved exactly what he got.  We're not
> > comparing crimes
> > here.  All "perps" who commit crimes that inflict emotional or physical
> > suffering on others
> > are beneath contempt.  I do not for a moment "move the needle" on this
> > point.
> >      I found the article by that Sved fellow to be pathetic.  I can
> admire
> > and respect Mr.
> > Levine's accomplishments as a musician, but as a human being, NEVER.  I
> > cannot listen to
> > the voices of Tiana Lemnitz and Maria Mueller without them turning to
> > poison
> > in my ears.
> > I won't spend a penny on a Mel Gibson film, and nor would I give Steve
> > Bannon a moment
> > of my time.
> >     From my point of view, it's like asking for forgiveness and
> redemption
> > for Don Michael
> > Corleone, Bernie Madoff, or even Charles Manson. We will never know the
> > full
> > extent or
> > depth of Mr. Levine's indiscretions, but we know enough -MORE than 
> > enough
> > --
> > that's more
> > than sufficient to taint his legacy forever.
> >
> > **********************************************
> > OPERA-L on Facebook:
> > http://www.facebook.com/groups/25703098721/
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message to [log in to unmask]
> > containing only the words:  SIGNOFF OPERA-L
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > To stay subscribed but TURN OFF mail, send a message to
> > [log in to unmask] containing only the words:  SET OPERA-L
> NOMAIL
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> > Modify your settings: http://listserv.bccls.org/archives/opera-l.html
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> >
>
> **********************************************
> OPERA-L on Facebook:
> http://www.facebook.com/groups/25703098721/
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message to [log in to unmask]
> containing only the words:  SIGNOFF OPERA-L
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> To stay subscribed but TURN OFF mail, send a message to
> [log in to unmask] containing only the words:  SET OPERA-L NOMAIL
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Modify your settings: http://listserv.bccls.org/archives/opera-l.html
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

**********************************************
OPERA-L on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/25703098721/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message to [log in to unmask]
containing only the words:  SIGNOFF OPERA-L
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To stay subscribed but TURN OFF mail, send a message to
[log in to unmask] containing only the words:  SET OPERA-L NOMAIL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modify your settings: http://listserv.bccls.org/archives/opera-l.html
-------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

**********************************************
OPERA-L on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/groups/25703098721/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To UNSUBSCRIBE, send a message to [log in to unmask]
containing only the words:  SIGNOFF OPERA-L
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
To stay subscribed but TURN OFF mail, send a message to
[log in to unmask] containing only the words:  SET OPERA-L NOMAIL
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Modify your settings: http://listserv.bccls.org/archives/opera-l.html
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back to: Top of Message | Previous Page | Main OPERA-L Page

Permalink



LISTSERV.BCCLS.ORG

CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager