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Subject: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
From: walter guitian <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:walter guitian <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Thu, 10 Aug 2017 03:58:36 +0000
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bob, Sometimes you would have to check your posts before you send them, especially when there are audio documents that can make it look like you do not understand anything.Renata Scotto was a lyrical leggero soprano with a colorless voice and a very strident and ugly top , that wanted to overact. Her Adriana lecouvreur is that.There are audio documents to show which are the best "Io son l'umile ancella" versions, which are Tebaldi and Cigna https://youtu.be/Pb-IT9Wc79I
https://youtu.be/vsu9en7Cujw

Scotto Adriana is a bluff  ,with no voicehttps://youtu.be/Sn2VvDE34qg

keep wellWalter







      De: Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
 Para: [log in to unmask] 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 9 de agosto, 2017 11:48:45
 Asunto: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
   
Peter, I don't think so.

I would suggest that Magda Olivero was at least as famous and 
celebrated as Renata Tebaldi, both during the time in which
Tebaldi sang the role and later. Witness the Naples 1959 revival 
with Simionato, Corelli and Bastianini. A flawed work, flawlessly 
performed! 

In later years -
I certainly found both Caballe and Scotto far better vocally, 
and in Scotto's case, visually, at least Tebaldi's equal.

Bob

On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 09:32:02 -0400, Peter Bloch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Tebaldi certainly wasn't in good voice (for her), but it was a thrilling evening.  And 
listening to tapes from those performances after all these years confirms that, even in her 
damaged state, she was far and away so much better and more moving in this role than 
anyone who's followed her.  And with a sterling supporting cast no less!
>

>-----Original Message-----
>From: OPERA-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
>To: OPERA-L <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 9:13 am
>Subject: OPERA-L Digest - 8 Aug 2017 - Special issue (#2017-774)
>
>There are 2 messages totalling 502 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics in this special issue:
>
>  1. DON CARLO Recordings....And Björling?
>  2. Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
>
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>
>Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:59:03 +0000
>From:    Arbe Bareis <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: DON CARLO Recordings....And Björling?
>
>Too bad the performance is ruined by the two prominent women. I do not care=
> for either Rigal or Barbieri. Milanov and Stigani would have been wonderfu=
>l. I sometimes think Traubel might have made an interesting Eboli (with O d=
>on fatale in a lower key). After all, she wanted to sing Italian parts.=20
>
>
>      From: Juan Dzazopulos <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 7:26 AM
> Subject: DON CARLO Recordings....And Bj=C3=B6rling?
>  =20
>The Metropolitan Opera opened its 1950-51 season with a new production=20
>of "Don Carlo". It did not include the Fontainebleau scene, neither=20
>the 3rd act ballet, La P=C3=A9r=C3=A9grina.
>The cast for the opening night (November 6, 1950) was:
>Jussi Bj=C3=B6rling (Don Carlo); Delia Rigal (Elisabetta); Fedora Barbieri=
>=20
>(Eboli); Robert Merrill (Roderigo); Cesare Siepi (Filippo); Jerome=20
>Hines (Inquisitore); Lucina Amara (Voce Celestiale). The conductor was=20
>Fritz Stiedry.
>Later performances included (not together): Richard Tucker (Don=20
>Carlo); Eleanor Steber (Elisabetta); Paolo Silveri and Frank Valentino=20
>(Roderigo); Blanche Thebom (Eboli); Hans Hotter and Nicola Moscona=20
>(Inquisitore) and Jerome Hines (Filippo).
>
>The opening performance was fortunately live recorded and it was=20
>available from Myto Records (2MCD 911.35) (1995). Though 22 years old,=20
>I still consider it as one of my favourite recordings of Don Carlo,=20
>and only followed by the 1951 Cetra commercial recording already=20
>mentioned (Picchi, Caniglia, Stignani, Silveri, Rossi Lemeni, Neri and=20
>Sciutti: Fernando Previtali, conductor).
>
>Juan
>---------------
>
>
>
>
>
>El Tue, 8 Aug 2017 04:00:51 -0500
>=C2=A0 Russ Geschke <[log in to unmask]> escribi=C3=B3:
>
>> Because no one else has mentioned this:=C2=A0 There is also a 2 CD=20
>>"Living Stage" mono recording of "Don Carlo" from Lyric Opera of=20
>>Chicago, opening night 14 October 1960, with Tucker, Margherita=20
>>Roberti, Gobbi, Simionato, and Christoff, conducted by Antonino=20
>>Votto.=C2=A0 The usual abridged performance edition.=C2=A0 The sound (as I=
>=20
>>recall) was quite good.=C2=A0 My copy came from either amazon.com or ebay.
>>=20
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vesna Danilovic"=20
>><[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 7:19 PM
>> Subject: Re: DON CARLO Recordings
>>=20
>>=20
>>>I absolutely agree with you about the Solti and Giulini studio sets,=20
>>>Max.
>>> If not the first studio recording (that honor goes to Santini even=20
>>>twice,
>>> no idea why...), Solti's was surely the first *major* studio set.=20
>>>Now that
>>> you highlight Gobbi on Santini '54, I've never heard his Rodrigo and=20
>>>would
>>> surely want to listen to it. I do have this second studio from 1961=20
>>>and for
>>> all the reasons we mentioned, it's a keeper for me.
>>>
>>> Best, Vesna
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Maxwell Paley <[log in to unmask]>=20
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Vesna, I also held back figuring certainly someone else would jump=20
>>>>in. The
>>>> first one was an HMV mono set from 1954 whose main glory, for me,=20
>>>>was
>>>> Gobbi's Rodrigo.
>>>>
>>>> The second was a 1961 DGG set (one of their La Scala=20
>>>>collaborations). I
>>>> agree about Santini's dull, flabby conducting. As you said, the=20
>>>>stereo set
>>>> has glorious male beauty from Bastianini and Christoff, a=20
>>>>surprisingly good
>>>> Carlo from Labo and a marvelous, propulsive Eboli from young=20
>>>>Cossotto.
>>>>
>>>> To me, Anonietta Stella is the Italian equivalent of the German=20
>>>>soprano,
>>>> Marianne Schech. Good voice, good size, good range held back by an=20
>>>>overall
>>>> musical "dowdiness." Both singers capable of lighting up with the=20
>>>>right
>>>> role and conductor and suddenly being stunning. Not here.
>>>>
>>>> Vesna, as oldsters like me remember, "Don Carlo" fans had to make do=20
>>>>with
>>>> these (and be grateful for the Fontainebleu scene from the DGG set)=20
>>>>until
>>>> the world improved with the release of the Solti and, I think even=20
>>>>better,
>>>> Giulini sets. But I don't underestimate that Solti set; it was a=20
>>>>major
>>>> upgrade and filled an important slot.
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>
>>>> > On Aug 7, 2017, at 16:06, Vesna Danilovic <[log in to unmask]>=20
>>>>wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, William Fiorelli >=20
>>>><[log in to unmask]>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> I have an number of DON CARLO CDs in my collection and recently=20
>>>>read
>>>> >> through a discography.=C2=A0 I am not familiar with the following tw=
>o
>>>> recordings
>>>> >> and am interested in your opinions.=C2=A0 Thanks!BILL
>>>> >> DON CARLO ( 5 ACT version)=C2=A0 Santini, Labo, Christoff, Stella, >=
>>=20
>>>>Cossotto,
>>>> >> Bastianini, Vinco, 1961
>>>> >> DON CARLO ( 4 ACT version) Santini, Filippeschi, Christoff,=20
>>>>Stella,
>>>> >> Nicolai, Gobbi, Neri, 1954
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > At first I was surprised that nobody replied onlist to this query=20
>>>>> because
>>>> > there are quite a few DON CARLO aficionados here, but then this=20
>>>>also
>>>> shows
>>>> > that there are probably no champions of these two sets. Both are=20
>>>>early
>>>> > studios and one would think they would be more than just souvenirs=20
>>>>from
>>>> the
>>>> > time when this opera was not much recorded. I think that Santini's=20
>>>>> boring
>>>> > conducting on both sets and a variable cast make them both almost,=20
>>>>but
>>>> not
>>>> > entirely, forgettable for some listeners.
>>>> >
>>>> > That said, I heard only the later of these two recordings because=20
>>>>it > was
>>>> > the only studio recording of Bastianini's Posa, whose rich voice=20
>>>>comes
>>>> > through with the same brilliance as on his great live=20
>>>>performances, and
>>>> > that alone makes this set worthwhile to get. I would also add >=20
>>>>Christoff's
>>>> > imposing King Philip (to my ears even better than on the legendary=20
>>>>'58
>>>> live
>>>> > from ROH) and one of the better Dona Carlos on record, Flaviano=20
>>>>Labo. I
>>>> am
>>>> > not as familiar with Labo but he strikes me as a true spinto tenor=20
>>>>and > I
>>>> am
>>>> > frankly mystified why he didn't have a major career. I hope Stella=20
>>>>did
>>>> > better on the first set because here you can hear some lovely=20
>>>>singing > but
>>>> > devoid of any interpretive insight (by contrast, she is a=20
>>>>wonderful
>>>> > Maddalena in the film version of ANDREA CHENIER with Del Monaco).=20
>>>>The
>>>> main
>>>> > liability is Santini whose routine approach to the score often=20
>>>>borders > on
>>>> > boredom but this is Verdi's masterpiece that is difficult to=20
>>>>destroy.
>>>> While
>>>> > this is I believe the first studio to include the Fontainebleau=20
>>>>scene > (in
>>>> > Italian) but then Santini makes many cuts elsewhere. So, if you=20
>>>>love > this
>>>> > opera, I think you would enjoy the great Bastianini as Posa as=20
>>>>well as
>>>> > Labo's Don Carlo and Christoff's Phillip.
>>>> >
>>>> > Just my two cents. Vesna
>>>> >
>>>> > **********************************************
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:09:03 +0000
>From:    "Takis Pavl." <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
>
>Thanks for sharing that moving moment of her return to the MET stage.=20
>
>I'll agree with David. I've also listened to the infamous Adriana and can't=
> really tell it's such a terrible night for Tebaldi. Yes, the problems that=
> made her take a break after this production are there but it's not what I =
>would call a dreadful performance. The are far worse performances of equall=
>y great singers in trouble and even by Tebaldi herself.
>
>I wonder if the critics were prepared to attack this production because eve=
>ryone in NY hated the idea of having Adriana staged at the MET. Funnily eno=
>ugh, it has been back at the MET numerous times since Tebaldi's first produ=
>ction for many of its subsequent prima donnas so I suppose Tebaldi's bet di=
>d work out to the MET's benefit after all.=20
>
>The fact that Tebaldi never wobbled is down to her technique. I remember re=
>ading a discussion between music critics where it was noted that all those =
>scratchy recordings of elderly singers who reigned supreme the 19th century=
> but had almost retired when they could record something for posterity show=
> that even though they had lost some of their highest notes, the fundamenta=
>l technical ability of singing a steady tone, a simple melodic phrase witho=
>ut holes in their scale remained intact. The same happened with Tebaldi, Be=
>rgonzi, Pavarotti, Caballe, Kraus, Freni whereas those who experienced wobb=
>ling problems lost or never had that very fundamental technical skill.
>Takis
>
>
>> >
>> >> On Aug 7, 2017, at 4:35 PM, David Kubiak <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> A story firmly entrenched in the operatic annals and well-known to any
>> >> serious opera fan is Tebaldi's famously badgering Mr. Bing into mounti=
>ng
>> >> 'Adriana Lecouvreur' for her in 1963, her appearing in dreadful voice,
>> >> withdrawing from the production, and then leaving the stage entirely
>> for a
>> >> year to recover.=C2=A0 I remember myself my distress at reading the NY
>> critics at
>> >> the time, and even her former press manager Lanfranco Rasponi calls th=
>e
>> >> incident 'a debacle', and says that 'her voice was simply in terrible
>> >> shape.'=C2=A0 That would be bad enough, but iconic artists are not kno=
>wn for
>> >> saying negative things about themselves, and Tebaldi is quoted looking
>> back
>> >> at the period from late 1962 into 1963, 'The voice simply became
>> heavier and
>> >> heavier, until there was no more voice.'
>> >>
>> >> Needless to say, as a lover of Tebaldi's voice second only to Walter
>> Guitan,
>> >> I have always been curious about exactly what she sounded like in '63.
>> The
>> >> Met=C2=A0 finally made that possible by releasing the performance of 2=
>/9,
>> which I
>> >> listened to yesterday on Sirius.=C2=A0 Simply put, I am at an utter lo=
>ss to
>> >> harmonize what I was hearing with what has been said all these years.
>> Her
>> >> middle voice was completely intact and flowed with all the velvet beau=
>ty
>> >> that made her sound unique.=C2=A0 As to the top, there was one occasio=
>n in
>> Act II
>> >> where she actually pulled off one of her famous high pianissimi (the
>> text
>> >> was 'la promessa [something]'); otherwise the notes above the staff we=
>re
>> >> indeed very loud, but completely solid and in tune. She had some troub=
>le
>> >> with the releases, but no worse than Milanov did her whole career.=C2=
>=A0 The
>> >> duets with Corelli I thought magnificent; there was exactly one note i=
>n
>> >> 'Poveri fiori' that did strike me as frayed, but that was it.=C2=A0 Th=
>e
>> audience
>> >> was most enthusiastic.=C2=A0 In short, she sounded to me more or less
>> exactly as
>> >> she did in her return as Mimi the next year, which the Met broadcast n=
>ot
>> >> long ago -- it's unclear to me what Ugo de Caro did for her.=C2=A0 To =
>my
>> ears the
>> >> real change in her sound did not come until she decided to take up
>> 'Gioconda'.
>> >>
>> >> (One thing that must be said, even by her detractors, is that to her
>> last
>> >> recital, she never, ever, wobbled, which is the single biggest factor =
>in
>> >> largely keeping me out of the opera house today.=C2=A0 Whether it's th=
>e
>> German
>> >> wing (Stemme) or the Italian (Meade), audiences have become used to a
>> >> tremolo in soprano voices that I cannot abide.)
>> >>
>> >> It may be that Tebaldi really did suffer a collapse at a later
>> performance,
>> >> but the one I heard in no way corresponded to the melodramatic prose
>> that
>> >> has been lavished on this incident.=C2=A0 I would be interested if the=
>re are
>> any
>> >> others of us 'of a certain age' who might be able to contribute their
>> insight.
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> David Kubiak
>> >>
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