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Subject: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
From: walter guitian <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:walter guitian <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Thu, 10 Aug 2017 03:33:54 +0000
Content-Type:text/plain
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Bob, If we are going to take as a reference the performances a singer gave for its number, you a confessed Callas fan , could never say your Maria is the best La Gioconda because she sang it 13 times, nor Amina because she sang it 22 times, nor I puritani because she sang it 16 times, nor  Lucía because she sang it 46 times, nor  Aida because she sang it 33 times, a what about another 32 Callas roles she sang less than ten performances of them, as for example Lady Macbeth, she could never be the best Lady Macbeth .Making that useless comparison between the number of performances of Tebaldi and Olivero in one opera, in that case Adriana Lecouvreur, you forget that Tebaldi sang operas of popular repertoire (Boheme, Otello, La Forza del destino,Tosca, Aida , etc)  at the Metropolitan and in major opera houses around the world and Adriana Lecouvreur was an opera that was not scheduled in those big opera houses, and paradoxically when Magda Olivero sang Adriana Lecouvreur at La Scala in 1958, the first cast was Clara Petrella that sang around 6 performances  , and Magda only sang the last three performances, as the second donna. (Tebaldi had sung Adriana Lecouvreur at La Scala in the 1952/53 season and of course as the prima donna, you imagine Tebaldi singing one of her roles as second cast ?)Olivero sang a lot in province in Italy , in small theaters, and she sang until she was very old that's why she has 115 Adrianas in her chronology and Tebaldi 55
Regards for the biggest Callas fan in opera-l archives (Mr Rideout)
Walter

      De: Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
 Para: [log in to unmask] 
 Enviado: Miércoles, 9 de agosto, 2017 19:52:20
 Asunto: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
   
How about reading the post to which I responded and then my post.
You might see that -
the discussion was about Adriana, and Magda Olivero is at least as
famous in the role as Renata Tebaldi.

She sang it before Tebaldi ever walked onto a stage, and she was
persuaded to return to the stage, from which she had retired, by
Cilea, who wanted her to sing the role at Brescia in the early fifties.
She sang it throughout Tebaldi's years and a number if times
after Renata retired the role.

A quick look at their respective careers as Adriana shows the
following -

Olivero - about 115 performances
Tebaldi - about 55

Olivero sang it in about 40 cities in ten countries.
Tebaldi sang it in about 15 cities in fiv countries.


On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 6:35 PM Les Mitnick <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Bob:
>    I'm not about to get into a debate over the respective vocal attributes
> of Olivero, Tebaldi, Caballe, or Scotto.  They're all remembered for
> different attributes and deficiencies, but all four of them were certainly
> deserving of the admiration and approbation they received.  With all due
> respect, however, I find it hard to see Magda Olivero's name recognition
> and fame being on a level with Tebaldi, who was known internationally, and
> in terms of fame, was second only to Callas, who was always photographed at
> airports, parties (sometimes surrounded by film stars and other celebrities
> ----- not to even mention the Onassis triangle) and even covered in the
> tabloids.
>    Magda Olivero was a great artist, a real "verista", but she never
> became an international commuter as Tebaldi did.  She, along with Callas,
> Caballe, and Scotto did many commercial recordings and sang extensively in
> the United States (though Callas usually did concert tours aside from her
> brief staged performances in Chicago, Dallas, and the Met).  Olivero, I
> believe, didn't even begin to arouse interest in the U.S. until she
> appeared in Cherubini's "Medea" in Dallas when she was nearing age sixty.
> Olivero's entire fame and name recognition was very strong in
> Italy............ but beyond there?
>    In addition to the Met, Tebaldi appeared regularly in Chicago, San
> Francisco year after year.  She was already adored in Italy, Vienna, Paris,
> Berlin, London, Rome, and in all the other big opera centers. Interesting
> enough, Olivero was Tebaldi's stand-in for that 1959 "Adriana", which IS
> very exciting.  Also, Olivero spent an awful lot of time away from opera
> even in Italy.  She took a very long time away from opera and waited a very
> long time to return.  But because her performances were so well remembered,
> she became a permanent legend in Italy, where her reputation flourished.
>    But "fame" as great as that of Tebaldi?  I simply don't see it.  But
> perhaps I'm wrong.
>
> > On August 9, 2017 at 9:48 AM Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Peter, I don't think so.
> >
> > I would suggest that Magda Olivero was at least as famous and
> > celebrated as Renata Tebaldi, both during the time in which
> > Tebaldi sang the role and later. Witness the Naples 1959 revival
> > with Simionato, Corelli and Bastianini. A flawed work, flawlessly
> > performed!
> >
> > In later years -
> > I certainly found both Caballe and Scotto far better vocally,
> > and in Scotto's case, visually, at least Tebaldi's equal.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > On Tue, 8 Aug 2017 09:32:02 -0400, Peter Bloch <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Tebaldi certainly wasn't in good voice (for her), but it was a
> thrilling evening.  And
> > listening to tapes from those performances after all these years
> confirms that, even in her
> > damaged state, she was far and away so much better and more moving in
> this role than
> > anyone who's followed her.  And with a sterling supporting cast no less!
> > >
> >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: OPERA-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]>
> > >To: OPERA-L <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Sent: Tue, Aug 8, 2017 9:13 am
> > >Subject: OPERA-L Digest - 8 Aug 2017 - Special issue (#2017-774)
> > >
> > >There are 2 messages totalling 502 lines in this issue.
> > >
> > >Topics in this special issue:
> > >
> > >  1. DON CARLO Recordings....And Björling?
> > >  2. Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
> > >
> > >**********************************************
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> > >
> > >----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 12:59:03 +0000
> > >From:    Arbe Bareis <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Subject: Re: DON CARLO Recordings....And Björling?
> > >
> > >Too bad the performance is ruined by the two prominent women. I do not
> care=
> > > for either Rigal or Barbieri. Milanov and Stigani would have been
> wonderfu=
> > >l. I sometimes think Traubel might have made an interesting Eboli (with
> O d=
> > >on fatale in a lower key). After all, she wanted to sing Italian
> parts.=20
> > >
> > >
> > >      From: Juan Dzazopulos <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 8, 2017 7:26 AM
> > > Subject: DON CARLO Recordings....And Bj=C3=B6rling?
> > >  =20
> > >The Metropolitan Opera opened its 1950-51 season with a new
> production=20
> > >of "Don Carlo". It did not include the Fontainebleau scene, neither=20
> > >the 3rd act ballet, La P=C3=A9r=C3=A9grina.
> > >The cast for the opening night (November 6, 1950) was:
> > >Jussi Bj=C3=B6rling (Don Carlo); Delia Rigal (Elisabetta); Fedora
> Barbieri=
> > >=20
> > >(Eboli); Robert Merrill (Roderigo); Cesare Siepi (Filippo); Jerome=20
> > >Hines (Inquisitore); Lucina Amara (Voce Celestiale). The conductor
> was=20
> > >Fritz Stiedry.
> > >Later performances included (not together): Richard Tucker (Don=20
> > >Carlo); Eleanor Steber (Elisabetta); Paolo Silveri and Frank
> Valentino=20
> > >(Roderigo); Blanche Thebom (Eboli); Hans Hotter and Nicola Moscona=20
> > >(Inquisitore) and Jerome Hines (Filippo).
> > >
> > >The opening performance was fortunately live recorded and it was=20
> > >available from Myto Records (2MCD 911.35) (1995). Though 22 years
> old,=20
> > >I still consider it as one of my favourite recordings of Don Carlo,=20
> > >and only followed by the 1951 Cetra commercial recording already=20
> > >mentioned (Picchi, Caniglia, Stignani, Silveri, Rossi Lemeni, Neri
> and=20
> > >Sciutti: Fernando Previtali, conductor).
> > >
> > >Juan
> > >---------------
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >El Tue, 8 Aug 2017 04:00:51 -0500
> > >=C2=A0 Russ Geschke <[log in to unmask]> escribi=C3=B3:
> > >
> > >> Because no one else has mentioned this:=C2=A0 There is also a 2 CD=20
> > >>"Living Stage" mono recording of "Don Carlo" from Lyric Opera of=20
> > >>Chicago, opening night 14 October 1960, with Tucker, Margherita=20
> > >>Roberti, Gobbi, Simionato, and Christoff, conducted by Antonino=20
> > >>Votto.=C2=A0 The usual abridged performance edition.=C2=A0 The sound
> (as I=
> > >=20
> > >>recall) was quite good.=C2=A0 My copy came from either amazon.com or
> ebay.
> > >>=20
> > >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vesna Danilovic"=20
> > >><[log in to unmask]>
> > >> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > >> Sent: Monday, August 07, 2017 7:19 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: DON CARLO Recordings
> > >>=20
> > >>=20
> > >>>I absolutely agree with you about the Solti and Giulini studio
> sets,=20
> > >>>Max.
> > >>> If not the first studio recording (that honor goes to Santini even=20
> > >>>twice,
> > >>> no idea why...), Solti's was surely the first *major* studio set.=20
> > >>>Now that
> > >>> you highlight Gobbi on Santini '54, I've never heard his Rodrigo
> and=20
> > >>>would
> > >>> surely want to listen to it. I do have this second studio from
> 1961=20
> > >>>and for
> > >>> all the reasons we mentioned, it's a keeper for me.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best, Vesna
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Maxwell Paley <[log in to unmask]>=20
> > >>>wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> Vesna, I also held back figuring certainly someone else would
> jump=20
> > >>>>in. The
> > >>>> first one was an HMV mono set from 1954 whose main glory, for me,=20
> > >>>>was
> > >>>> Gobbi's Rodrigo.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The second was a 1961 DGG set (one of their La Scala=20
> > >>>>collaborations). I
> > >>>> agree about Santini's dull, flabby conducting. As you said, the=20
> > >>>>stereo set
> > >>>> has glorious male beauty from Bastianini and Christoff, a=20
> > >>>>surprisingly good
> > >>>> Carlo from Labo and a marvelous, propulsive Eboli from young=20
> > >>>>Cossotto.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> To me, Anonietta Stella is the Italian equivalent of the German=20
> > >>>>soprano,
> > >>>> Marianne Schech. Good voice, good size, good range held back by
> an=20
> > >>>>overall
> > >>>> musical "dowdiness." Both singers capable of lighting up with the=20
> > >>>>right
> > >>>> role and conductor and suddenly being stunning. Not here.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Vesna, as oldsters like me remember, "Don Carlo" fans had to make
> do=20
> > >>>>with
> > >>>> these (and be grateful for the Fontainebleu scene from the DGG
> set)=20
> > >>>>until
> > >>>> the world improved with the release of the Solti and, I think
> even=20
> > >>>>better,
> > >>>> Giulini sets. But I don't underestimate that Solti set; it was a=20
> > >>>>major
> > >>>> upgrade and filled an important slot.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>>
> > >>>> > On Aug 7, 2017, at 16:06, Vesna Danilovic <[log in to unmask]
> >=20
> > >>>>wrote:
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > On Sat, Aug 5, 2017 at 7:12 PM, William Fiorelli >=20
> > >>>><[log in to unmask]>
> > >>>> > wrote:
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >> I have an number of DON CARLO CDs in my collection and
> recently=20
> > >>>>read
> > >>>> >> through a discography.=C2=A0 I am not familiar with the
> following tw=
> > >o
> > >>>> recordings
> > >>>> >> and am interested in your opinions.=C2=A0 Thanks!BILL
> > >>>> >> DON CARLO ( 5 ACT version)=C2=A0 Santini, Labo, Christoff,
> Stella, >=
> > >>=20
> > >>>>Cossotto,
> > >>>> >> Bastianini, Vinco, 1961
> > >>>> >> DON CARLO ( 4 ACT version) Santini, Filippeschi, Christoff,=20
> > >>>>Stella,
> > >>>> >> Nicolai, Gobbi, Neri, 1954
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > At first I was surprised that nobody replied onlist to this
> query=20
> > >>>>> because
> > >>>> > there are quite a few DON CARLO aficionados here, but then this=20
> > >>>>also
> > >>>> shows
> > >>>> > that there are probably no champions of these two sets. Both
> are=20
> > >>>>early
> > >>>> > studios and one would think they would be more than just
> souvenirs=20
> > >>>>from
> > >>>> the
> > >>>> > time when this opera was not much recorded. I think that
> Santini's=20
> > >>>>> boring
> > >>>> > conducting on both sets and a variable cast make them both
> almost,=20
> > >>>>but
> > >>>> not
> > >>>> > entirely, forgettable for some listeners.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > That said, I heard only the later of these two recordings
> because=20
> > >>>>it > was
> > >>>> > the only studio recording of Bastianini's Posa, whose rich
> voice=20
> > >>>>comes
> > >>>> > through with the same brilliance as on his great live=20
> > >>>>performances, and
> > >>>> > that alone makes this set worthwhile to get. I would also add >=20
> > >>>>Christoff's
> > >>>> > imposing King Philip (to my ears even better than on the
> legendary=20
> > >>>>'58
> > >>>> live
> > >>>> > from ROH) and one of the better Dona Carlos on record, Flaviano=20
> > >>>>Labo. I
> > >>>> am
> > >>>> > not as familiar with Labo but he strikes me as a true spinto
> tenor=20
> > >>>>and > I
> > >>>> am
> > >>>> > frankly mystified why he didn't have a major career. I hope
> Stella=20
> > >>>>did
> > >>>> > better on the first set because here you can hear some lovely=20
> > >>>>singing > but
> > >>>> > devoid of any interpretive insight (by contrast, she is a=20
> > >>>>wonderful
> > >>>> > Maddalena in the film version of ANDREA CHENIER with Del
> Monaco).=20
> > >>>>The
> > >>>> main
> > >>>> > liability is Santini whose routine approach to the score often=20
> > >>>>borders > on
> > >>>> > boredom but this is Verdi's masterpiece that is difficult to=20
> > >>>>destroy.
> > >>>> While
> > >>>> > this is I believe the first studio to include the Fontainebleau=20
> > >>>>scene > (in
> > >>>> > Italian) but then Santini makes many cuts elsewhere. So, if you=20
> > >>>>love > this
> > >>>> > opera, I think you would enjoy the great Bastianini as Posa as=20
> > >>>>well as
> > >>>> > Labo's Don Carlo and Christoff's Phillip.
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > Just my two cents. Vesna
> > >>>> >
> > >>>> > **********************************************
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> > >------------------------------
> > >
> > >Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 13:09:03 +0000
> > >From:    "Takis Pavl." <[log in to unmask]>
> > >Subject: Re: Tebaldi's (in)famous 1963 'Adriana'
> > >
> > >Thanks for sharing that moving moment of her return to the MET stage.=20
> > >
> > >I'll agree with David. I've also listened to the infamous Adriana and
> can't=
> > > really tell it's such a terrible night for Tebaldi. Yes, the problems
> that=
> > > made her take a break after this production are there but it's not
> what I =
> > >would call a dreadful performance. The are far worse performances of
> equall=
> > >y great singers in trouble and even by Tebaldi herself.
> > >
> > >I wonder if the critics were prepared to attack this production because
> eve=
> > >ryone in NY hated the idea of having Adriana staged at the MET. Funnily
> eno=
> > >ugh, it has been back at the MET numerous times since Tebaldi's first
> produ=
> > >ction for many of its subsequent prima donnas so I suppose Tebaldi's
> bet di=
> > >d work out to the MET's benefit after all.=20
> > >
> > >The fact that Tebaldi never wobbled is down to her technique. I
> remember re=
> > >ading a discussion between music critics where it was noted that all
> those =
> > >scratchy recordings of elderly singers who reigned supreme the 19th
> century=
> > > but had almost retired when they could record something for posterity
> show=
> > > that even though they had lost some of their highest notes, the
> fundamenta=
> > >l technical ability of singing a steady tone, a simple melodic phrase
> witho=
> > >ut holes in their scale remained intact. The same happened with
> Tebaldi, Be=
> > >rgonzi, Pavarotti, Caballe, Kraus, Freni whereas those who experienced
> wobb=
> > >ling problems lost or never had that very fundamental technical skill.
> > >Takis
> > >
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >> On Aug 7, 2017, at 4:35 PM, David Kubiak <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> A story firmly entrenched in the operatic annals and well-known to
> any
> > >> >> serious opera fan is Tebaldi's famously badgering Mr. Bing into
> mounti=
> > >ng
> > >> >> 'Adriana Lecouvreur' for her in 1963, her appearing in dreadful
> voice,
> > >> >> withdrawing from the production, and then leaving the stage
> entirely
> > >> for a
> > >> >> year to recover.=C2=A0 I remember myself my distress at reading
> the NY
> > >> critics at
> > >> >> the time, and even her former press manager Lanfranco Rasponi
> calls th=
> > >e
> > >> >> incident 'a debacle', and says that 'her voice was simply in
> terrible
> > >> >> shape.'=C2=A0 That would be bad enough, but iconic artists are not
> kno=
> > >wn for
> > >> >> saying negative things about themselves, and Tebaldi is quoted
> looking
> > >> back
> > >> >> at the period from late 1962 into 1963, 'The voice simply became
> > >> heavier and
> > >> >> heavier, until there was no more voice.'
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Needless to say, as a lover of Tebaldi's voice second only to
> Walter
> > >> Guitan,
> > >> >> I have always been curious about exactly what she sounded like in
> '63.
> > >> The
> > >> >> Met=C2=A0 finally made that possible by releasing the performance
> of 2=
> > >/9,
> > >> which I
> > >> >> listened to yesterday on Sirius.=C2=A0 Simply put, I am at an
> utter lo=
> > >ss to
> > >> >> harmonize what I was hearing with what has been said all these
> years.
> > >> Her
> > >> >> middle voice was completely intact and flowed with all the velvet
> beau=
> > >ty
> > >> >> that made her sound unique.=C2=A0 As to the top, there was one
> occasio=
> > >n in
> > >> Act II
> > >> >> where she actually pulled off one of her famous high pianissimi
> (the
> > >> text
> > >> >> was 'la promessa [something]'); otherwise the notes above the
> staff we=
> > >re
> > >> >> indeed very loud, but completely solid and in tune. She had some
> troub=
> > >le
> > >> >> with the releases, but no worse than Milanov did her whole
> career.=C2=
> > >=A0 The
> > >> >> duets with Corelli I thought magnificent; there was exactly one
> note i=
> > >n
> > >> >> 'Poveri fiori' that did strike me as frayed, but that was
> it.=C2=A0 Th=
> > >e
> > >> audience
> > >> >> was most enthusiastic.=C2=A0 In short, she sounded to me more or
> less
> > >> exactly as
> > >> >> she did in her return as Mimi the next year, which the Met
> broadcast n=
> > >ot
> > >> >> long ago -- it's unclear to me what Ugo de Caro did for her.=C2=A0
> To =
> > >my
> > >> ears the
> > >> >> real change in her sound did not come until she decided to take up
> > >> 'Gioconda'.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> (One thing that must be said, even by her detractors, is that to
> her
> > >> last
> > >> >> recital, she never, ever, wobbled, which is the single biggest
> factor =
> > >in
> > >> >> largely keeping me out of the opera house today.=C2=A0 Whether
> it's th=
> > >e
> > >> German
> > >> >> wing (Stemme) or the Italian (Meade), audiences have become used
> to a
> > >> >> tremolo in soprano voices that I cannot abide.)
> > >> >>
> > >> >> It may be that Tebaldi really did suffer a collapse at a later
> > >> performance,
> > >> >> but the one I heard in no way corresponded to the melodramatic
> prose
> > >> that
> > >> >> has been lavished on this incident.=C2=A0 I would be interested if
> the=
> > >re are
> > >> any
> > >> >> others of us 'of a certain age' who might be able to contribute
> their
> > >> insight.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Thanks.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> David Kubiak
> > >> >>
> > >> >> **********************************************
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> > >End of OPERA-L Digest - 8 Aug 2017 - Special issue (#2017-774)
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