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Subject: Re: A te, o cara
From: Peter Bloch <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To:Peter Bloch <[log in to unmask]>
Date:Sun, 19 Feb 2017 06:52:10 -0500
Content-Type:text/plain
Parts/Attachments:
Parts/Attachments

text/plain (569 lines)


Herbert Weinstock, in his definitive biography of Bellini, called it "Arturo's entrance aria, which quickly becomes a chorus-supported quartet..."

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 19, 2017, at 6:43 AM, OPERA-L automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> 
> There are 4 messages totalling 536 lines in this issue.
> 
> Topics in this special issue:
> 
>  1. beautiful baritone voices
>  2. Retirement of Hermann Prey? Was: Re: beautiful baritone voices
>  3. Puritani - today, from the Met (2)
> 
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:34:31 +0000
> From:    "Takis Pavl." <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: beautiful baritone voices
> 
> Is there a reason why this thread includes mostly baritones who are German,=
> or specialised in German repertoire? Is that soft lieder baritone quality =
> necessary for someone to have a "beautiful" voice? If so, I often found the=
> voice of Olaf B=C3=A4r especially beautiful and not too soft-grained which=
> bores me a bit. On the other hand I find the sound of the bronze Italian b=
> aritones much more beautiful. Besides the classic old-timers, the current o=
> ne who's impressed me a lot is Giorgio Caoduro. It's not a huge voice but b=
> eautifully produced and has a gorgeous timbre.=20
> Takis
> 
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Sun, 19 Feb 2017 04:22:33 -0500
> From:    Ulrik <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Retirement of Hermann Prey? Was: Re: beautiful baritone voices
> 
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 10:54:38 -0700, Donald Levine <[log in to unmask]> w=
> rote:
> 
> Prey, what more can be said.  Even at the time of his retirement his voic=
> e was fresh, beautiful=20
> and so wonderfully produced.  A great singer.
> 
> Dear Donald,
> 
> I thought that Mr. Prey continued singing almost until his too early demi=
> se at the age of 69,=20
> meaning that he never retired?  Well, I am probaby wrong.
> 
> kind regards
> 
> Ulrik
> 
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Sun, 19 Feb 2017 05:21:05 -0500
> From:    Jon Goldberg <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Puritani - today, from the Met
> 
> Bob - I'm truly curious here, and would invite true discussion on this (n=
> ot a feud). I'm at a=20
> loss to see your distinction.=20
> 
> As I said, many pieces that involve a major formal solo (pieces we tend t=
> o call "arias" as a=20
> matter of course) do involve other voices. Whether it's an occasional sol=
> o jab ("Recondita=20
> Armonia") or a choral "backup" of sorts (I used "Il Lacerato Spirito" bef=
> ore - this could also=20
> apply to a huge number of bel canto/Verdi arias, etc) or a full-on comple=
> x ensemble in=20
> which the solo melody is the defining part (Musetta's waltz) - we do inde=
> ed refer to these=20
> as arias. Are you saying they are not? And if so, what is the dividing li=
> ne?=20
> 
> Would "Plebe, Patrizi" with its gorgeous complex central ensemble section=
> (and ending)=20
> really not be considered an aria? Or the Prize Song? The Toreador Song? I=
> sabella's=20
> wonderful showpiece "Per Lui Che Adoro" with the 3 men adding in their sn=
> eaky asides?=20
> 
> It does seem to me that, through the Classical period, an aria was more s=
> trictly just a solo=20
> (for instance, I can't at the moment think of an example of a Mozart aria=
> that involves=20
> other vocal input - though there might be something I'm not thinking of) =
> - but that when=20
> we get to Bel Canto and beyond, composers started integrating other voice=
> s into big formal=20
> solo moments - certainly many examples of arias with chorus involvement a=
> ll through the=20
> 19th century, but also having other solo voices involved as well. Just as=
> there are formal=20
> structures to certain kinds of arias (as I mentioned before, such as da c=
> apo or=20
> cavatina/cabaletta etc), I think the idea of an aria that also involved o=
> ther singing became=20
> a valid construction. Also, how many cavatina/cabaletta arias can we thin=
> k of (there are so=20
> many) that involve either chorus or a comprimario or both?=20
> 
> As wonderfully integrated as Elvira (certainly), Giorgio, Walton, and the=
> chorus are into "A=20
> Te O Cara," it's still mostly Arturo's moment - he gets the main melody b=
> y himself, he's=20
> the only one to get an extreme bravura moment with that high C# (not Db, =
> as Ira Siff tried=20
> to tell us today), and he's the dramatic focus of the moment (not only st=
> ory-wise, but this=20
> IS the first singing he does as well - it's his "entrance aria" so to spe=
> ak). I don't know what=20
> else would define an aria, whether there's other singing going on or not.=
> (And as I also said=20
> earlier, OUT OF CONTEXT of the opera, as with recitals or solo recordings=
> , etc, often these=20
> kinds of pieces are done with the other voices missing for practicality's=
> sake, and they still=20
> work as a solo turn. The kind of solo turn we'd all call an aria.)
> 
> So - where is the dividing line between "aria" and "not aria"? I'm truly =
> curious to know=20
> what would qualify some pieces as arias while others would not, in your o=
> pinion, be so? Are=20
> we really going to say that a piece can only be an aria if there are no o=
> ther voices involved=20
> ever? Or is it something else? Seems to me it's going to be a very murky =
> line to draw. ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 20:33:22 -0500, Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]> wro=
> te:
> 
>> No, it is not an aria, It is part of an ensemble, which, in sum, is at
>> least as
>> much a  part of  the "so called aria" as Is his music. Your turn, I
>> wouldn't if I were you. It is not an aria!   It is not cllose!
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> On Saturday, February 18, 2017, Jon Goldberg <[log in to unmask]> wrote=
> :
>> 
>>> Speaking in accepted general terms, "A Te O Cara" is most certainly an=
> 
>>> aria. What else
>>> would you call it?
>>> 
>>> If you're saying it can't be an aria because other people sing during =
> it,
>>> then neither are
>>> "Recondita Armonia" or "Il Lacerato Spirito" or "Quando M'en Vo," nor =
> all
>>> the many solo
>>> pieces with choral involvement, etc. (And all of these, of course, can=
> be
>>> sung out of
>>> context without the other voices, on recitals, recordings, etc - and o=
> ften
>>> are.)
>>> 
>>> If you're saying it's not in the "form" of an aria - well, there is no=
> one
>>> musical structure to
>>> an aria. Arias come in many forms - and not just the formal structures=
> 
>>> like da capo and
>>> cavatina/cabaletta.
>>> 
>>> And though I'm not aware of what the official Italian terms would be, =
> but
>>> if this were
>>> French opera, the title page of what would be "A te O Cara" would prob=
> ably
>>> say "couplets"
>>> - because it's 2 refrains of the melody.
>>> 
>>> It's an aria. ;-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Rather - here's an interesting (and odd) argument - Camarena said on t=
> he
>>> broadcast
>>> interview that he doesn't think "A Te O Cara" is passionate.
>>> (transcription below.) I tend to
>>> think most if not all of us would disagree, lol. Discuss...;-)
>>> 
>>> ("I don't think it's passionate. It's really a way to say [to] her tha=
> t
>>> she's the thing...she's
>>> the person who make[s] him believe again in love...and it's almost lik=
> e a
>>> declaration, so
>>> it's not so passionate, and it's more tender, more...singing actually =
> to
>>> her, and to himself,
>>> because he remembers all the sorrows he had before...so, I just think
>>> about that - about
>>> the love this guy must be feeling to tell these words to Elvira, so it=
> 's a
>>> matter of let[ting]
>>> go of yourself with the melody and the text.")
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 17:21:39 -0500, Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]
>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Today's performance had some knockout moments, mainly
>>>> provided by Javier Camerana.  He was wonderful in "A te o cara"
>>>> (would someone please tell the announcers that it is not an aria)
>>> 
>>> **********************************************
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> ------------------------------
> 
> Date:    Sun, 19 Feb 2017 06:42:57 -0500
> From:    Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Puritani - today, from the Met
> 
> Hi Jon
> 
> If you go to Google and key "aria definition" you will see
> a large number of entries, all of which define "aria" as music
> for a solo voice, particularly when the reference is to opera.
> 
> My example of a problem with that definition is "Mi chiamano
> Mmi". Ridolfo interjects "si" right in the middle, and I just
> can't think that such a rigid definition precludes it being
> considered an aria. But, all of your examples, especially
> "Plebe! Patrizi! Popolo" are, by the dictionary definition and in
> my view, ensembles.
> 
> "A te o cara" is no more than 50% Arturo solo vocalism. I
> Puritani is particularly interesting in this regard. I cannot think
> of one piece of music that is, by definition, an aria, though I
> may be forgetting something.
> 
> Bob
> 
> On Sunday, February 19, 2017, Jon Goldberg <[log in to unmask]
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',[log in to unmask]);>> wrote:
> 
>> Bob - I'm truly curious here, and would invite true discussion on this
>> (not a feud). I'm at a
>> loss to see your distinction.
>> 
>> As I said, many pieces that involve a major formal solo (pieces we tend to
>> call "arias" as a
>> matter of course) do involve other voices. Whether it's an occasional solo
>> jab ("Recondita
>> Armonia") or a choral "backup" of sorts (I used "Il Lacerato Spirito"
>> before - this could also
>> apply to a huge number of bel canto/Verdi arias, etc) or a full-on complex
>> ensemble in
>> which the solo melody is the defining part (Musetta's waltz) - we do
>> indeed refer to these
>> as arias. Are you saying they are not? And if so, what is the dividing
>> line?
>> 
>> Would "Plebe, Patrizi" with its gorgeous complex central ensemble section
>> (and ending)
>> really not be considered an aria? Or the Prize Song? The Toreador Song?
>> Isabella's
>> wonderful showpiece "Per Lui Che Adoro" with the 3 men adding in their
>> sneaky asides?
>> 
>> It does seem to me that, through the Classical period, an aria was more
>> strictly just a solo
>> (for instance, I can't at the moment think of an example of a Mozart aria
>> that involves
>> other vocal input - though there might be something I'm not thinking of) -
>> but that when
>> we get to Bel Canto and beyond, composers started integrating other voices
>> into big formal
>> solo moments - certainly many examples of arias with chorus involvement
>> all through the
>> 19th century, but also having other solo voices involved as well. Just as
>> there are formal
>> structures to certain kinds of arias (as I mentioned before, such as da
>> capo or
>> cavatina/cabaletta etc), I think the idea of an aria that also involved
>> other singing became
>> a valid construction. Also, how many cavatina/cabaletta arias can we think
>> of (there are so
>> many) that involve either chorus or a comprimario or both?
>> 
>> As wonderfully integrated as Elvira (certainly), Giorgio, Walton, and the
>> chorus are into "A
>> Te O Cara," it's still mostly Arturo's moment - he gets the main melody by
>> himself, he's
>> the only one to get an extreme bravura moment with that high C# (not Db,
>> as Ira Siff tried
>> to tell us today), and he's the dramatic focus of the moment (not only
>> story-wise, but this
>> IS the first singing he does as well - it's his "entrance aria" so to
>> speak). I don't know what
>> else would define an aria, whether there's other singing going on or not.
>> (And as I also said
>> earlier, OUT OF CONTEXT of the opera, as with recitals or solo recordings,
>> etc, often these
>> kinds of pieces are done with the other voices missing for practicality's
>> sake, and they still
>> work as a solo turn. The kind of solo turn we'd all call an aria.)
>> 
>> So - where is the dividing line between "aria" and "not aria"? I'm truly
>> curious to know
>> what would qualify some pieces as arias while others would not, in your
>> opinion, be so? Are
>> we really going to say that a piece can only be an aria if there are no
>> other voices involved
>> ever? Or is it something else? Seems to me it's going to be a very murky
>> line to draw. ;-)
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 20:33:22 -0500, Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> No, it is not an aria, It is part of an ensemble, which, in sum, is at
>>> least as
>>> much a  part of  the "so called aria" as Is his music. Your turn, I
>>> wouldn't if I were you. It is not an aria!   It is not cllose!
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Saturday, February 18, 2017, Jon Goldberg <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Speaking in accepted general terms, "A Te O Cara" is most certainly an
>>>> aria. What else
>>>> would you call it?
>>>> 
>>>> If you're saying it can't be an aria because other people sing during
>> it,
>>>> then neither are
>>>> "Recondita Armonia" or "Il Lacerato Spirito" or "Quando M'en Vo," nor
>> all
>>>> the many solo
>>>> pieces with choral involvement, etc. (And all of these, of course, can
>> be
>>>> sung out of
>>>> context without the other voices, on recitals, recordings, etc - and
>> often
>>>> are.)
>>>> 
>>>> If you're saying it's not in the "form" of an aria - well, there is no
>> one
>>>> musical structure to
>>>> an aria. Arias come in many forms - and not just the formal structures
>>>> like da capo and
>>>> cavatina/cabaletta.
>>>> 
>>>> And though I'm not aware of what the official Italian terms would be,
>> but
>>>> if this were
>>>> French opera, the title page of what would be "A te O Cara" would
>> probably
>>>> say "couplets"
>>>> - because it's 2 refrains of the melody.
>>>> 
>>>> It's an aria. ;-)
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Rather - here's an interesting (and odd) argument - Camarena said on the
>>>> broadcast
>>>> interview that he doesn't think "A Te O Cara" is passionate.
>>>> (transcription below.) I tend to
>>>> think most if not all of us would disagree, lol. Discuss...;-)
>>>> 
>>>> ("I don't think it's passionate. It's really a way to say [to] her that
>>>> she's the thing...she's
>>>> the person who make[s] him believe again in love...and it's almost like
>> a
>>>> declaration, so
>>>> it's not so passionate, and it's more tender, more...singing actually to
>>>> her, and to himself,
>>>> because he remembers all the sorrows he had before...so, I just think
>>>> about that - about
>>>> the love this guy must be feeling to tell these words to Elvira, so
>> it's a
>>>> matter of let[ting]
>>>> go of yourself with the melody and the text.")
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2017 17:21:39 -0500, Bob Rideout <[log in to unmask]
>>>> <javascript:;>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Today's performance had some knockout moments, mainly
>>>>> provided by Javier Camerana.  He was wonderful in "A te o cara"
>>>>> (would someone please tell the announcers that it is not an aria)
>>>> 
>>>> **********************************************
>>>> OPERA-L on Facebook:
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/groups/25703098721/
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
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> ------------------------------
> 
> End of OPERA-L Digest - 18 Feb 2017 to 19 Feb 2017 - Special issue (#2017-175)
> ******************************************************************************

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